Global trade can be challenging, especially for small and medium-sized enterprises. Luckily, the Australian Trade and Investment Commission (Austrade) is here to help. In the latest episode of the Global Trade Made Easy Podcast, host Tejas Oza sits down with David Lawson, the Assistant General Manager of Export Supply Chain Services at Austrade, to explore how Austrade assists Australian exporters and foreign investors in navigating the complex global trade landscape.
During the podcast, Tejas and David discuss Austrade’s offshore network and how the commission assists Australian exporters in penetrating foreign markets. Some key highlights from the episode include:
David Lawson leads a team of experts at Austrade to provide support and assistance to exporters in diversifying international markets, prepositioning inventory, and maximising benefits of trade agreements like USFDA, EUFDA, and Hector (India-Australia). Exporters can receive assistance by calling Austrade’s hotline at 132 878 or visiting austrade.gov.au for sector/country-specific information.
Don’t miss out on this insightful podcast episode! Tune in now to discover how Austrade helps Australian exporters overcome the tyranny of distance and expand their reach in the global market.
Tejas Oza, ImpexDocs: Hello and welcome to the Global Trade Made Easy Podcast. In this podcast, we speak to the global trade leaders, innovators, and influencers from around the world. In Australia, we talk about ideas that can disrupt your organisation, industry, or even careers. So let’s dig in.
Hello everybody. Today we have David Lawson, Assistant General Manager, Export Supply Chain Services from Austrade. David, welcome to the show.
David Lawson, Austrade: Hey, thanks very much, Tejas. It’s great to be here. Looking forward to having a good chat about such an interesting topic.
Tejas Oza, ImpexDocs: Absolutely. Looking forward to it. So David if you don’t mind for our viewers and listeners would you mind telling us what’s your role with Austrade and also what Austrade does?
David Lawson, Austrade: Yeah, that’s great. Let me start by explaining, and I say hello to all the. Listeners who are not in Australia as well. So, our full formal name is in fact the Australian Trade and Investment Commission. It’s a government, it’s an Australian government authority.
So we report to the Minister for Trade Don Farrell. And it’s, it’s actually, it’s genesis as an organization goes right back to 1933 and the concept behind. The birth of the Australian Trade and Investment Commission. And the reason why Australian taxpayer money goes to supporting it now is because our job has always been to, you know, to overcome the tyranny of distance.
So, you know, Australia is an island at the bottom of the bottom of the. And in, in many ways we’re a long way away from our markets. So the Australian Trade Commission was set up to help, you know, overcome the tyranny of distance and help Australian exporters get into markets and also to help foreign investors as they look to get into Australia.
So within the Australian Trade and Investment Commission there. One of the divisions is solely dedicated to helping Australian exporters export, and it’s called the Trade Division. So I’m, I’m the assistant, one of the assistant general managers of the trade division. And my role is actually to look after agriculture, food, consumer exporters.
And I also look after some work that we do to. Australian exporters understand some of the trials and tribulations for supply chains. So we’ll probably get into the conversation a little later. But, you know, one of the biggest impacts to Australian exporters lately has been the breakdown of supply chains.
So a leader team of global engagement managers. We’ve got. Through our extended network, including the trade start service, which Australia runs in partnership with Australian state governments. We’ve got about 70 people all around Australia who are dedicated to working with Australian exporters to help them get into foreign markets.
It’s great to be, it’s great to be leading a really exciting team.
Tejas Oza, ImpexDocs: Thanks David. That is very interesting. The conversation will really suit to our viewers because most of the viewers are interested in exports, Australia . And so there are quite a few listeners from overseas countries who wants to come into Australia and invest it.
So I think the perfect match. Our focus will be on the exports from Australia today.
David Lawson, Austrade: Yep. Terrific. Yeah, so our offshore network, you know, we we’re in around 70 countries around the world. Some very big operations in, based in our embassies and in our high commissions and consulates general, all, all around the world.
And so if there are any of the audience today who are interested in buying from Australia, that’s the other side of our business, so they can make contact with Austrade. The, you know, the shorthand for the Australian Trade Commission, they can make contacts through our embassies overseas, and our business development managers can help you know, foreign buyers get in contact with suppliers from Australia. So, you know, there’s many ways I hope we’d be able to help with the conversation today.
Tejas Oza, ImpexDocs: David excellent. Thank you for that. I understand that you have had a long involvement yourself personally. Trade and exports. Would you mind telling us how did you, how did you get involved in trade and exports?
David Lawson, Austrade: Thanks, Tejas actually, so I was really lucky. I was an exchange student under the Rotary program to Japan when I was 17. So I finished high school in Australia and went off to Japan, and I was hosted by you know, a series of businessmen in their families. And so I, you know, got to live in, in, in families who are doing business and, you know, just really excited my appetite to learn more about trade and business in Japan more specifically. And, you know, I came back to Australia and did my undergraduate degree and worked all the way through university. I was actually working with, you know, Japanese industry.
Learning, you know, learning sophisticated Japanese so that I could, you know, negotiate with Japanese. And I just always had this desire to be part of, you know, whether I was working for a big company or a small company that I might be able to help Australians export to Japan. So that was my original motivation and, and I started a business, I had a business idea that I would help Australian exporters get into Japan.
Now I started it when I was pretty young and, and I was pretty naive. So I was learning on the job. It was the University of hard knocks in many ways, coz I learned a. , I decided that if I focus on things the Japanese will always want to buy. There’ll always be a market. And what do people always need to buy?
We’ll, just keep it simple. You need to, you need food, you need clothing, and you need shelter, housing. And actually where I really got the most success was in. Exporting houses from Australia to Japan. So I was based in Japan and I, I found a Japanese architect who wanted to try to build a brick house.
So I guess as an importer into Japan, I found a supplier from Australia who could pull together a kit house. And then we built a model house in Japan, and we actually used Australian bricks and all the timber and all the things we had to make sure that it met Japanese earthquake requirements so it would be safe and then, Once we kind of figured out how to, I guess, crack the code and try and, you know, make money from this we, we started to expand the business now as an Australian exporter.
This is when I really understood the power of the Australian Trade Commission of Australia. So I became a client of Austrade. And all of the trade commissioners in regional Japan were finding customers for me, so Japanese architects and builders who wanted to import this kind of new concept of an Australian house.
And in the end, I built about 50 houses around Japan and, and the, the exporter from Australia. So I was kind of acting as the middle man and the export. Who was bundling all of these kit houses together for me actually won an Exporter of the Year award. So, it was a, it was, we learned a lot.
I didn’t make a lot of money. I didn’t lose money, but I learned a heck of a lot. And when I was looking to transition the business and, and grow I, I decided to try my hand at being one of these Austrade trade commissioners. And I applied and got a job with, with Austrade. So, it was 25 years ago now actually, but I joined Austrade, I was the trade commissioner in in Sendai in the northern part of Japan.
And then since then a. Has given me the opportunity to spend time in Australia. I’ve also been a trade commissioner and a cons general in San Francisco, in Mongolia, and I’ve had a number of other jobs with Australia in Tokyo, in Sub and in Osaka. So it’s been it’s been a great opportunity to apply the things that I learned as an exporter to.
Help companies in all sectors export around the world and not just to, to Japan. So, it’s been an exciting career. Very different from what I thought it was going to be, but it’s been great.
Tejas Oza, ImpexDocs: That is a fascinating story, David. That’s a fascinating story. How does that, how does the progress work, right?
So you become a client of Austrade, and then you become part of Austrade. Yeah. Excellent. That’s very interesting. Yeah. Right. So, so what I, what I’m hearing from you is that Austrade also helps find customers. It happened in your story. Is it, does it still happen?
David Lawson, Austrade: Exactly. That’s the key thing that we do.
The real value add. So what we, the typical path that a, that an Australian exporter, we call ’em clients. A typical path might be that they approach Austrade and, and You know, they have an idea, I need to get into exports, or I’m exporting to one market, but I need help in getting to this other market.
So our, my team and, and, and in other sectors, the, our global engagement managers and our advisors meet with the exporter, understand their business, and we, I guess we, we coach them on the basics of getting into business. Do you have the right, do you. Do you have the financial resources to be able to sustain a marketing push into a foreign market?
You know, can you afford to travel and go and meet your customers? Do you have the people in the team to be able to produce the products? If you get a massive order, can you actually sustain? Can you fulfill that? Do you have the finances to be able to you know, to gear up, to be able to meet the demand once we make the export contact.
So then you know, we determine, okay, Malaysia might be a really good pro market for, for your particular product. And then what we do is we contact our team, Malaysia and we brief them on, on, on who the exporter is and what their product is, and our team offshore then. and, you know, finds potential customers and we introduce the product and you know, I guess we’re the bridge builder to facilitate the conversation and then, you know, we get outta the road and let people actually negotiate commercial deals.
You know, there’s other things that we do along the way. People You know, market their product, their samples might get stuck at the airport, need to get cleared by customs. So we, you know, we contact our team offshore, we’ll contact the brokers, the freight forwarders in, in market and help, you know, remove the log jam and re remove impediments to help the trade flow smoothly.
So, you know, we, that’s the typical pattern. The reverse is also true because our business development managers are talking every day to major supermarkets, for example, or, or big industrial manufacturers who suddenly need something that they figure they can get from Australia and we get these leads.
You know, it might be for butter. Actually a really good example was in the United States when. With infant nutrition. So infant formula, the main manufacturer was not able to produce anymore. So the, it became a national emergency and in fact, president Biden got involved. It was called Operation of Life on one and they were trying to find infant formula all around the world.
So we took the details, our team in Washington and Chicago. Worked to understand the specifications. We communicated that to all of the manufacturers in Australia, and we helped the number of those crack the code and get their product into the United States. So, you know, this is what we do day in, day out to help Australian export.
Tejas Oza, ImpexDocs: Nice. This is really helpful for our audience. Now you talked about some of the ways Austrade is helping exporters in, even in the current environment. So, post I, I guess, at the moment we are coming out of COVID in the current environment. How do you see Austrade and exporters are doing, they, how are they faring currently?
David Lawson, Austrade: Yeah, great question Tejas. And you know, trade is so important for Austrade where, like I said before, we’re an islands nation. we have to trade. And you know, it is just been so difficult, you know, in all the years that I’ve been involved and, you know, and you know, people are older and wiser and if we look at the histories, it’s never been more Strange as it has during the pandemic.
I mean, this really started in, in 2019 when, you know, some of our supply chains were disrupted by the book Bushfires. Then we had COVID on the top of that. You know, we had geopolitical pressures from, you know, from China blocking imports from Australia for a lot of our agricultural products. Then the impact of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
I mean, it’s just never been stranger. and you know, if you look at the statistics in 20 19, 20 20 financial year, so we were exporting about 475 billion. You know, that was the value of our exports. And that was a record high. Then the plane stopped because of. and ships were completely disrupted and our exports fell in, you know, the debts of 2020 and 2021.
Our exports were down to 250 billion. But, you know, this is how resilient Australian exporters are. You know, and it’s real testament to the way that Australian exporters have had to deal with and modify what they do. You know, at the moment we’ve we’re up to 421. So, you know, by the end of this financial year, I we’re probably gonna send another record, set another record.
a lot of that has been on the back of, you know, the tensions with Ukraine and you know, if we could produce twice as much wheat we’d, it’d still be a world market for Australian wheat. So, you know, it’s been. from a global perspective, from, you know, if you look at all of Australian exports, it, it there are winners, but there have also been significant losers.
And our job is really to help especially those companies that are really struggling and ag and food in particular have been, you know, so, so hard here. So, yeah. So that’s what we’ve been focusing on, especially in. Branch working with those ag and food consumers to help them diversify internet markets.
Tejas Oza, ImpexDocs: Right. Yeah. I mean, because of my role, I also worked with a lot of exporters and you’re absolutely right. COVID post COVID challenges did disrupt a lot of exports, and I can see a lot of them are picking up in, in a, in a fantastic way. Yeah. So, what did you find, I mean, we talked about some of the challenges of exporters, post COVID.
What are the other things you notice in terms of challenges which the exporters are dealing with currently?
David Lawson, Austrade: So, just as a little bit of a snapshot, you know, with supply chains, we’ve been monitoring. You know, flights and shipping and with the, with the you know, the kind of the back to normal.
We, COVID is still here, but we’re operating as if it weren’t in many ways. People are traveling again and we’ve been monitoring and flights from Australia are now up back around about 75% of where they were prior to COVID. The, the difficulty is that there is not as many freighters number of reasons for that.
Pilots lost their qualifications during COVID because they weren’t flying the hours. So we don’t have as many pilots, we don’t have as many crews for you know, because of environmental reasons. Some of those. As it were, gas guzzling aircraft you know, they’re just too costly to fly.
So, the airlines you know, they’re, they really work it hard, you know, Qantas alone lost billions of dollars as to, you know, most airlines and so they’re putting their most efficient planes and they’re maximizing the number of people that have. Now that’s great for people wanting to travel.
It’s still expensive, but because they’re on smaller aircraft wide you know, narrow body aircraft, once you put the passenger and the passenger’s bags and then the airline, they’re obliged to carry mail and they’re obliged to carry spare parts for, you know, for their own airline, means there’s not a lot of space left for air.
So that that’s a continued difficulty. And we’re also, you know, we got out of sequence with the spread around the world of pallets. So we’ve got a shortage of pallets and a shortage, especially of food grade 20 foot containers. So both on sea freight and air freight. You know, there are still pressures there and, you know, the, it’s quite costly.
The ramifications for that for companies is that, you know, you can’t just get an order, ring your freight forward, you know, get a container delivered packet and send it when you want. you need to be planning, you need to be working really closely with your importer. You know, some companies are actually pre-positioning more of their inventory off.
You know, when they can to make sure that in anticipation for Chinese New Year, for example, or, know, some of the big events, you know, Thanksgiving for example, in the US is a big, the, you know, black Monday and what is it? Black Friday and just all those big sales cycles, especially in the Northern Hemisphere.
Exporters need to preposition, they need to think differently about how they handle their inventory and how they handle their supply. That has costs, you know, holding inventory longer has costs. So there’s all kinds of impacts to, you know, to exports. Yeah.
Tejas Oza, ImpexDocs: Yeah. I understand. Yeah. Quite a of challenges and, but I also see that, that the freight is getting a little bit easier.
Our client, we deal with clients and they, we hear that things are getting more, a lot more normalized. Freight forwarders are now starting to operate and they didn’t get the vessel booking earlier that easily. Now they have started. You know, they’re starting to normalize again.
Yeah. So David, how do you see the next 24 months and what’s next from as you see it?
David Lawson, Austrade: Yeah, that’s a big question. So, on one hand, you know, you’ve got the big macroeconomic pictures of interest rates and global interest rates. And, you know, is the northern hemisphere slowing down?
You know, is the US going to go into recession? There are big questions like with the opening up of China. You know, what, if there’s a big outbreak of COVID now What’s going to happen with the Russian invasion of Ukraine and just, you know, how unsettled all of that is. So on one hand there’s big things that we need to be mindful of, but you know, at the end of the day, we need to keep exporting.
And at, on the plus side, there’s some really great opportunities that, are especially opening up for Australian exporters. So over, you know, a series of, you know, many years Australia has really been championing. The importance of free trade. And, you know, we’ve won some fantastic free trade agreements over the years, you know, going right back to the US F D a, the free, the, the economic partnership agreement that we established with Japan, which was one of the, one of the most profoundly beneficial pre-trade agreements.
That Australia won in consultation negotiations with the Japanese have opened up in Korea, China, you know, Malaysia and Asan. But you know, we’re right on the cusp of the finalization of the UK F D A all going well by the end of this month that’ll be ratified in the UK and that’s gonna open up enormous opportunities for Australia in the UK.
We’re very excited about that. People will be mindful of. Of the fact that, know, the UK the Brexit allowed us to open up the negotiations with the UK directly, but also we’re really doing well and we hold high hopes for a conclusion of the EU F D A. Which, which just opens up enormous opportunities for us all across Europe.
And the other one that’s just coming to force as well, of course, is the India, Australia economic corporation agreement. So Hector, we call it which has just opened up enormous opportunities for us with India. Again, this is another profound free trade agreement that’s been negotiated.
You know, there’s. just all kinds of markets there and from my sector looking after ag and food, you know, the enormity of the Indian market just for wine. Now this is gonna be a very long, slow story because, you know, Indians tend to drink. Men drink spirits and women drink the spirits and beer and women drink wine.
So, you know, this will be a long process, but we have really high hopes for you know, for wine in particular, but across the whole spectrum of ag and food, there’s great prospects for India. We’re really gearing up and really looking forward to taking advantage of that. So, you know, In any, in any form of business, you know, there’s risks, but there’s rewards and it’s great to be a part of really helping Australia take advantage of these great new opportunities that we are getting.
Tejas Oza, ImpexDocs: Yeah, so I, I was gonna ask you about that. So, when you talk, when you are talking about getting and taking advantage of all the opportunities, so what Austrade has in terms of tools and strategies that you help with to the Australian exporters grow in other markets?
David Lawson, Austrade: Sure. Well, I guess I’ve already outlined the mechanics of how we you know, how we do things.
So if any exporters are out there and they need advice on markets, on, on new markets, contact us. We’ve got a hotline as well, 132 878. So we’ve got people that you know, if you just want general information, statistics, call that number first. But you know, there’s other ways that you can reach out to Australia and we can get you know, in, in a sense.
In summary, it’s kind, it’s a people business. And, and, and we are the people that can help, you know, put a face to the negotiations. So that’s our primary toolkit. But you. I guess, over the last couple of years and because of you know, the big impact of COVID and the sudden dislocation of losing one of our, losing access to one of our biggest markets in China.
You know, our mantra is, and we will give this advice to anybody, is safe, business is diversified. So diversification is the key word and we are really keen to help Australian exporters. I guess build a whole portfolio so that they’ve got a whole series of markets into which they’re exporting so that they can take advantage of that trade diversification.
That is the key word. And that’s what we are continue to continuing to commit to, to help Australian exporters make sure you know that they’re diversifying to get a balanced portfolio of export markets.
Tejas Oza, ImpexDocs: So any exporter effectively who would like to diversify the markets to get in touch with Austrade simple as that. Right. That’s the message.
David Lawson, Austrade: Please do. Yep. I’ll say that number again. 132 878. But you know, we’ve got enormous resources just on our website as well.
And because it’s a government run organization, government organization. So, the website is pretty straightforward, austrade.gov.au au and there’s an enormous amount of information sector specific information country specific information. All kinds of information. I gave a little bit of a snapshot earlier about the flights.
You know, we are now back up to 75% of all flights. So you can go there and onto that website and find the export supply chain snapshot, for example, and register there. And but 132 878, give us a call. There’s people that man the phones that will be able to, you know, to point you in the right direction and, and connect.
And if you’re offshore and, and you need to get in contact and you think you want to either buy something from Australia, reach out to the Australian embassy you know, our marketing team, so the Austrade focus team in each of our embassies, high commissions, consulates, general, you know, we’ll be able to get you in contact with a supplier from a.
Tejas Oza, ImpexDocs: That, that is very useful information, David. We will also put all this information along with the podcast and on the YouTube as well, and the description, the links so people can get that. Now, David, Australia is an island nation and as you said before, we have always relied on trade.
And now in this circumstances of uncertainty across the world because of the factors that we, you also mentioned now we are relying on that more than ever before. What, how do you see Australia in the global exporting context and yeah, what, what’s your position from your perspective?
David Lawson, Austrade: Look, you know, in, if you look across everything that we export, there are some sectors where we are a dominant you know, supplier of products to the world. and, you know, I’m thinking fuels and minerals, for example energy products. You know, we are a dominant player.
But I guess you, you know, because we are an island, you know, we’re a continent, but we’re also really an island nation. Some, something that is a really terrific strength, I guess, for Australian exporters is that we can rely on the fact that we have very good phytosanitary rules. You know, it’s, it’s very strict when you enter Australia, as we know, going through customs and quarantine.
We are very fastidious to make sure that we protect our environment. You know, many countries tell us that they, you know, that they produce clean and green. The fact is that we have terrific a terrific track record in, in maintaining a very clean environment. So we do guarantee. Excellent quality of our produce.
And, and you know, that’s something that we can trade on. We’re building our nation brand globally to help rein, you know, reassure our customers that we are a safe supplier that will never let them down. That will continue no matter what. Even with supply chain disruptions that we’ll continue to strive to make sure that we can.
In partnership with our customers offshore, to bring the best of our Australian produce, in particular, you know, to markets throughout, you know, throughout Asia and beyond. A very big part of the Australian economy, of course, is that we are also open to investment. and so many of our big exporters and, and our big export industries are built on the fact that there.
Foreign investment to kick that off. Really great little case study in the food sector. You know, as a company, if you go into Australian supermarkets, there’s a whole shelf now for rice crackers. You know, 25 years ago you have to go to a specialist boutique Asian import grocery to be able to get rice crackers.
Now, you know, everyone. Eats rice crackers. We have them with dips. We know we have them as a snack. They’re just everywhere. And multiple brands. So a little story from when I first joined Australia was they, this company called Sakata had made an initial investment in Australia to manufacture. Their intention was to manufacture rice crackers to export back to Japan coz it’s cheaper using Austrade.
Cheaper and, you know, just great quality inputs into, into manufacturer of rice crackers. Well, that opened up a whole category in Australia. So we all eat rice crackers and, you know, Saka is a, has a big market share in Australia, but from that base in Melbourne, they’re also exporting all over Southeast Asia.
So they took the concept that, that foreign investment from a little company in northern Japan. Has grown a whole category in Australia and from that base in Australia is now exporting the around the I was in a supermarket in Toronto one time and there’s skato rice crackers. You know, it was, it was great to see that over these decades, that investment has helped.
It, it, it helps in so many ways. It builds jobs in Australia. But it also guarantees a great quality product to go around the world. And, and you that’s done in partnership through investment and then through the work that we do to help promote the exports.
Tejas Oza, ImpexDocs: Yeah, that’s a fantastic story actually.
Getting the product. Getting investment in Australia. , And then it becomes a category for Australia themselves. So, very interesting. Now if I don’t ask you your involvement in some of the sectors which are which, which are some of the US are from for example, meat exports industry horticulture grain industry, grain exports.
They are, we have a bulk of you know, viewers and listeners from those industries. So what would you tell them in terms of working with you and, and some of the experiences that you might have in those industries?
David Lawson, Austrade: Yeah. So, look, if, if you’re an Australian company, we’ll help you if we can.
But you know, a lot of those industries are very well organized and meat are really good example. So, you know, Meat and Livestock Australia is the international marketing body for the meat sector. You know, they have you know, terrific campaigns throughout the world to really grow our you know, the appreciation within.
Markets of the quality of Australian meat and, and you know, just as a, as an example, because I spent so much time in Japan, in fact, the Aussie beef logo is one of the 10 top 10 retail logos in supermarkets in Japan because over decades now, Meat and Livestock Australia has invested in in building that brand.
So in, in some areas the, the key industry associations, you know, they know exactly what needs to happen to grow to grow understanding in target markets, but we work very closely with them. In some cases, a meat company, for example, or a dairy company, so they work very closely with Dairy Australia.
Another you know, really important sector that promotes the excellence of the Australian dairy sector throughout the world. For example, might come to us and we’re already in this market, but we need to find a new distributor, or we need to find some you know, some new category.
So we get down and do, I guess the gorilla work on a, on an enterprise to enterprise level you know, in partnership with those industry associations, which is so important. So in e, each of those sectors, whether it’s seafood, whether it’s wine, whether it’s horticulture what did I miss. Nuts, wool, cotton.
You know, we work really closely with all of those sectors to make sure that, you know, we’re all pushing in the one direction and all putting our shoulder to the wheel to help, you know, the Australian exporter maximize the opportunities they can get from international trade.
Tejas Oza, ImpexDocs: David, this was really educational as well as informational podcast for even me.
I mean, your examples, some of the examples that you gave are, are that, that explains how you help them. I mean, that makes it real. And yeah, I would strongly recommend all the viewers who are in the exports from Australia or you are interested in importing from Australia. Get in touch with your Austrade representative in your country.
Of course in Australia, very easy to get in touch with them. Even overseas you can get in touch with them via the website. And you’ll find, I’m assuming David, the right representatives from the country. Is that correct?
David Lawson, Austrade: Absolutely. Yep. Okay. So we have locally engaged staff. We have trade commissioners in, in, you know, all our key markets. We’ve got you covered.
Tejas Oza, ImpexDocs: Excellent. David, thanks a lot for your time. Thank you for the conversation.
David Lawson, Austrade: Look forward to assisting all the listeners as much as we can. Thanks very much for your time.
ImpexDocs: This has been the Global Trade Made Easy podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast so you don’t miss an episode of Innovative Ideas from Trade Leaders across the globe. For even more insights on global trade, visit our website at impexdocs.com.au, where we share resources for successful international trade management. Until next time, happy trading.